You Can Push, But You Can't Direct It

Over in the Sinead thread, Dave said this of Larry's seeming disconnect from the rest of U2:

There aren’t “Larry songs” in the way that the Beatles had “George songs” or “Ringo songs”.

This got me thinking: Ever wonder if all this is the inevitable outcome for any band like U2 whose musical success is more the result of "magic" or "the spirit" than of actual talent on a technical level?

Bono has said countless times that nothing happens in the studio until "God walks through the room." When that happens, as it did for U2 the majority of the time during the first couple decades of their career, the result is sheer beauty. But the other side of this double-edged sword is a greater-than-usual drop-off in the quality of the output if or when God stays home.

If U2 were more like Radiohead, my guess is that their earlier material would have suffered a bit from the lack of spellbinding magic, but they'd still be able to rely upon their honed talent and technical skill (even to this day). But given the band's internal dynamic, the writing was always on the wall, for as the Good Book says, "Like the wind that blows where it wants to, so with the Spirit."

There's a sense in which this struggle between relying on the Spirit rather than using the crutch of technical and acquired skill is the whole theme of the song Discotheque:

It's not a trick,
'Cause you can't learn it;
It's the way you don't pay, that's OK,
'Cause you can't earn it.

You can reach, but you can't grab it
You can't hold it, control it
You can't bag it.

You can push, but you can't direct it
Circulate, regulate, oh no
You cannot connect it.

Jesus said that if you live by the sword you will also die by the sword. Perhaps the same is true with the Holy Spirit? He moves in mysterious ways.

Over in the Sinead thread, Dave said this of Larry's seeming disconnect from the rest of U2:

Quote from: This Dave on August 08, 2023, 03:20:15 PM

There aren’t “Larry songs” in the way that the Beatles had “George songs” or “Ringo songs”.

This got me thinking: Ever wonder if all this is the inevitable outcome for any band like U2 whose musical success is more the result of "magic" or "the spirit" than of actual talent on a technical level?

Bono has said countless times that nothing happens in the studio until "God walks through the room." When that happens, as it did for U2 the majority of the time during the first couple decades of their career, the result is sheer beauty. But the other side of this double-edged sword is a greater-than-usual drop-off in the quality of the output if or when God stays home.

If U2 were more like Radiohead, my guess is that their earlier material would have suffered a bit from the lack of spellbinding magic, but they'd still be able to rely upon their honed talent and technical skill (even to this day). But given the band's internal dynamic, the writing was always on the wall, for as the Good Book says, "Like the wind that blows where it wants to, so with the Spirit."

There's a sense in which this struggle between relying on the Spirit rather than using the crutch of technical and acquired skill is the whole theme of the song Discotheque:

It's not a trick,
'Cause you can't learn it;
It's the way you don't pay, that's OK,
'Cause you can't earn it.

You can reach, but you can't grab it
You can't hold it, control it
You can't bag it.

You can push, but you can't direct it
Circulate, regulate, oh no
You cannot connect it.

Jesus said that if you live by the sword you will also die by the sword. Perhaps the same is true with the Holy Spirit? He moves in mysterious ways.

That’s an interesting take exile, and something which I never thought of before regarding discotheque. In my head, I always imagined ‘love’ was the theme of the song, and how elusive and mysterious it can be, but your take on it sounds very plausible indeed.

Over in the Sinead thread, Dave said this of Larry's seeming disconnect from the rest of U2:

Quote from: This Dave on August 08, 2023, 03:20:15 PM

There aren’t “Larry songs” in the way that the Beatles had “George songs” or “Ringo songs”.

This got me thinking: Ever wonder if all this is the inevitable outcome for any band like U2 whose musical success is more the result of "magic" or "the spirit" than of actual talent on a technical level?

Bono has said countless times that nothing happens in the studio until "God walks through the room." When that happens, as it did for U2 the majority of the time during the first couple decades of their career, the result is sheer beauty. But the other side of this double-edged sword is a greater-than-usual drop-off in the quality of the output if or when God stays home.

If U2 were more like Radiohead, my guess is that their earlier material would have suffered a bit from the lack of spellbinding magic, but they'd still be able to rely upon their honed talent and technical skill (even to this day). But given the band's internal dynamic, the writing was always on the wall, for as the Good Book says, "Like the wind that blows where it wants to, so with the Spirit."

There's a sense in which this struggle between relying on the Spirit rather than using the crutch of technical and acquired skill is the whole theme of the song Discotheque:

It's not a trick,
'Cause you can't learn it;
It's the way you don't pay, that's OK,
'Cause you can't earn it.

You can reach, but you can't grab it
You can't hold it, control it
You can't bag it.

You can push, but you can't direct it
Circulate, regulate, oh no
You cannot connect it.

Jesus said that if you live by the sword you will also die by the sword. Perhaps the same is true with the Holy Spirit? He moves in mysterious ways.

Some years ago, I remember Bono saying that as they had gotten better at the craft of songwriting, it has gotten more difficult to write great songs. In their earlier days, everything either had that inspiration behind it, or didn’t, so it was much easier to tell if they were onto something.

^^

The better they got at the ‘craft’ of songwriting, the less original they became. They started to sound fairly generic and lost their ‘otherness’. I think bono pinpoints the release of atyclb as the beginning of u2 writing proper/coherent songs. I think it’s fairly obvious that a lot of their magic and uniqueness disappeared at that point too.

That’s an interesting take exile, and something which I never thought of before regarding discotheque. In my head, I always imagined ‘love’ was the theme of the song, and how elusive and mysterious it can be, but your take on it sounds very plausible indeed.

Well in keeping with Bono's semi-Messianic complex, he admits that often his songs end up meaning things he never originally intended. So while I doubt he was writing about the elusive nature of true success, perhaps subconsciously he was?

^^

The better they got at the ‘craft’ of songwriting, the less original they became. They started to sound fairly generic and lost their ‘otherness’. I think bono pinpoints the release of atyclb as the beginning of u2 writing proper/coherent songs. I think it’s fairly obvious that a lot of their magic and uniqueness disappeared at that point too.

Good point. If you start the way U2 did (marginally talented [if at all]) with a complete reliance on the je ne sais quoi, the-whole-is-greater-than-the-sum-of-its-parts dynamic, it would make sense that you would seem like a worse band the longer you continue (as opposed to a band like Radiohead who, it would seem, would just keep getting better since their raw and acquired skill was what originally made them great).

^^

The better they got at the ‘craft’ of songwriting, the less original they became. They started to sound fairly generic and lost their ‘otherness’. I think bono pinpoints the release of atyclb as the beginning of u2 writing proper/coherent songs. I think it’s fairly obvious that a lot of their magic and uniqueness disappeared at that point too.

Bono got it in his head that he had to be writing the sort of song Bruce Springsteen or Bob Dylan would write, or it wasn’t legitimate. So he stopped making the beautiful songs that Bono could write and they couldn’t.

Reminds me of when midlife crisis Paul McCartney and Billy Joel both made classical albums, like there was a voice in their head, telling them that what they had done wasn’t real music.

Quote from: Miami on August 08, 2023, 04:11:00 PM

That’s an interesting take exile, and something which I never thought of before regarding discotheque. In my head, I always imagined ‘love’ was the theme of the song, and how elusive and mysterious it can be, but your take on it sounds very plausible indeed.

Well in keeping with Bono's semi-Messianic complex, he admits that often his songs end up meaning things he never originally intended. So while I doubt he was writing about the elusive nature of true success, perhaps subconsciously he was?

Yep, I can see how those lyrics can be interpreted like that and he may well have been alluding to songwriting itself in the song. Just on discotheque, it’s probably the slowest burning u2 song for me in their catalogue. I liked the song from day one, although I didn’t really appreciate it at the time, but if you ask me today which songs make my top 5, discotheque would be one of them. The lyrics are ingenious, the structure and style of the song are perfect. One of their coolest songs undoubtedly, but it has taken me many years to realise it’s also one of their best achievements. And how they murdered it on the best of CD2 😡

Quote from: Miami on August 08, 2023, 04:26:34 PM

^^

The better they got at the ‘craft’ of songwriting, the less original they became. They started to sound fairly generic and lost their ‘otherness’. I think bono pinpoints the release of atyclb as the beginning of u2 writing proper/coherent songs. I think it’s fairly obvious that a lot of their magic and uniqueness disappeared at that point too.

Good point. If you start the way U2 did (marginally talented [if at all]) with a complete reliance on the je ne sais quoi, the-whole-is-greater-than-the-sum-of-its-parts dynamic, it would make sense that you would seem like a worse band the longer you continue (as opposed to a band like Radiohead who, it would seem, would just keep getting better since their raw and acquired skill was what originally made them great).

U2 actually doesn’t get enough credit for this, and god knows I don’t want to hear another “we came out of punk rock” speech, but they really did become so much more than what they were to a level that I’m not sure has been seen much, if ever.

Bono went from being no kind of singer at all, to an extraordinary one. If you played a tape of early Bono to a non-fan, it would probably blow their minds.

Quote from: The Exile on August 08, 2023, 04:50:11 PM

Quote from: Miami on August 08, 2023, 04:26:34 PM

^^

The better they got at the ‘craft’ of songwriting, the less original they became. They started to sound fairly generic and lost their ‘otherness’. I think bono pinpoints the release of atyclb as the beginning of u2 writing proper/coherent songs. I think it’s fairly obvious that a lot of their magic and uniqueness disappeared at that point too.

Good point. If you start the way U2 did (marginally talented [if at all]) with a complete reliance on the je ne sais quoi, the-whole-is-greater-than-the-sum-of-its-parts dynamic, it would make sense that you would seem like a worse band the longer you continue (as opposed to a band like Radiohead who, it would seem, would just keep getting better since their raw and acquired skill was what originally made them great).

U2 actually doesn’t get enough credit for this, and god knows I don’t want to hear another “we came out of punk rock” speech, but they really did become so much more than what they were to a level that I’m not sure has been seen much, if ever.

Bono went from being no kind of singer at all, to an extraordinary one. If you played a tape of early Bono to a non-fan, it would probably blow their minds.

The transformation from the boy album to their peak in the 90’s is mind-boggling. The only other band I can think of with a similar trajectory in creativeness and innovation is the beatles. 

Quote from: This Dave on August 08, 2023, 05:01:38 PM

Quote from: The Exile on August 08, 2023, 04:50:11 PM

Quote from: Miami on August 08, 2023, 04:26:34 PM

^^

The better they got at the ‘craft’ of songwriting, the less original they became. They started to sound fairly generic and lost their ‘otherness’. I think bono pinpoints the release of atyclb as the beginning of u2 writing proper/coherent songs. I think it’s fairly obvious that a lot of their magic and uniqueness disappeared at that point too.

Good point. If you start the way U2 did (marginally talented [if at all]) with a complete reliance on the je ne sais quoi, the-whole-is-greater-than-the-sum-of-its-parts dynamic, it would make sense that you would seem like a worse band the longer you continue (as opposed to a band like Radiohead who, it would seem, would just keep getting better since their raw and acquired skill was what originally made them great).

U2 actually doesn’t get enough credit for this, and god knows I don’t want to hear another “we came out of punk rock” speech, but they really did become so much more than what they were to a level that I’m not sure has been seen much, if ever.

Bono went from being no kind of singer at all, to an extraordinary one. If you played a tape of early Bono to a non-fan, it would probably blow their minds.

The transformation from the boy album to their peak in the 90’s is mind-boggling. The only other band I can think of with a similar trajectory in creativeness and innovation is the beatles.

The knee-jerk response from most would be to snark at the comparison, but it’s true.

Listen to 1980 Bono and then picture that guy recording the vocal on “Streets” 6 years later.

You guys nailed it.

What is mind blowing is that U2 took their magic for granted and didn’t take care of their creative process. Instead of securing that « god would walk in the room » they kind of ran away from it.

For all their business protectiveness… they missed the plot big time.

Which reminds me of yet another Bono quote when he said that most of interesting art was from people chasing god or running away from it. I guess he was wrong.

What is mind blowing is that U2 took their magic for granted and didn’t take care of their creative process. Instead of securing that « god would walk in the room » they kind of ran away from it.

For all their business protectiveness… they missed the plot big time.

And at the risk of getting all woo-woo up in here, if there is such thing as a "god" or a "spirit" who is accustomed to walking through rooms from time to time, my guess is that the way to cultivate or invite this would be to maintain a true sense of community and collaboration.

Is it a coincidence that if God ever did walk through the studio, he ceased to do it when the band ceased being there together first? Seems kinda unlikely that God would show up with all his creative magic when the band is recording their distinct parts in separate locations (or different countries) and then uploading digital files to the cloud.

If the four of them aren't together in the same room, don't expect God to be there either.

Quote from: Soloyan on August 08, 2023, 06:21:09 PM

What is mind blowing is that U2 took their magic for granted and didn’t take care of their creative process. Instead of securing that « god would walk in the room » they kind of ran away from it.

For all their business protectiveness… they missed the plot big time.

And at the risk of getting all woo-woo up in here, if there is such thing as a "god" or a "spirit" who is accustomed to walking through rooms from time to time, my guess is that the way to cultivate or invite this would be to maintain a true sense of community and collaboration.

Is it a coincidence that if God ever did walk through the studio, he ceased to do it when the band ceased being there together first? Seems kinda unlikely that God would show up with all his creative magic when the band is recording their distinct parts in separate locations (or different countries) and then uploading digital files to the cloud.

If the four of them aren't together in the same room, don't expect God to be there either.

Their method was always to bang it out in the studio for months at a time, until magic happened.

They don’t do it that way anymore*, and the magic doesn’t happen.



*I’m sure the process was always a big emotional strain on everyone, and a never ending fight. Still, that was how they worked.

Quote from: The Exile on August 08, 2023, 07:09:52 PM

Quote from: Soloyan on August 08, 2023, 06:21:09 PM

What is mind blowing is that U2 took their magic for granted and didn’t take care of their creative process. Instead of securing that « god would walk in the room » they kind of ran away from it.

For all their business protectiveness… they missed the plot big time.

And at the risk of getting all woo-woo up in here, if there is such thing as a "god" or a "spirit" who is accustomed to walking through rooms from time to time, my guess is that the way to cultivate or invite this would be to maintain a true sense of community and collaboration.

Is it a coincidence that if God ever did walk through the studio, he ceased to do it when the band ceased being there together first? Seems kinda unlikely that God would show up with all his creative magic when the band is recording their distinct parts in separate locations (or different countries) and then uploading digital files to the cloud.

If the four of them aren't together in the same room, don't expect God to be there either.

Their method was always to bang it out in the studio for months at a time, until magic happened.

They don’t do it that way anymore*, and the magic doesn’t happen.



*I’m sure the process was always a big emotional strain on everyone, and a never ending fight. Still, that was how they worked.

The last time I saw U2 jamming together to write songs was the Fez sessions for NLOTH.

But we know how they turned out : most of the stuff recorded there was altered and other stuff was brought in, breaking the record’s consistency.

More, it seems to have permanently damaged their (work) relationship with Eno & Lanois.

I think that’s when U2, the idea of U2 started going down the drain. When they lost confidence in the process that made them what they were.

Yeah, I said it. U2 is an idea.