Tour de France

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Soloyan

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Tour de France
« on: September 09, 2020, 03:47:53 AM »
Anyone following ? Who are you rooting for ?
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John Galt

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Re: Tour de France
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2020, 04:57:43 AM »
RIP Laurent Fignon.

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Soloyan

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Re: Tour de France
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2020, 06:10:00 AM »
RIP Laurent Fignon.

I climbed col de l'Izoard last month. His name was still written on the road.
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MPare1966

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Re: Tour de France
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2020, 06:25:05 AM »
Unfortunately, no TV channel is showing live coverage of Le Tour this year in my country. I would need to subscribe to an expensive streaming service. So basically, Iím following through the news reports.

Always had a soft spot for the French riders. Lately, itís been Pinot, but I reckon heís struggling a little right now. Bardet looks to be in could shape, though.

Iím also following closely local boy Hugo Houle, a supporting player for Astana. Seems to be enjoying his Tour greatly and providing a good helping hand to his leader, Lopez.

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Codeguy

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Re: Tour de France
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2020, 02:00:06 PM »
I've found the level of cheating too much to tolerate in recent years to keep up. I am keeping one eye on the Irish sprinter in Green, and I will cheer on Romain Bardet for the Malliot Jaune.
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Soloyan

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Re: Tour de France
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2020, 05:04:09 AM »
I've found the level of cheating too much to tolerate in recent years to keep up. I am keeping one eye on the Irish sprinter in Green, and I will cheer on Romain Bardet for the Malliot Jaune.

Well... since you don't like cheating, do you follow any pro sport at all ?
A dangerous idea that almost makes sense...

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Codeguy

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Re: Tour de France
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2020, 12:10:05 PM »
I've found the level of cheating too much to tolerate in recent years to keep up. I am keeping one eye on the Irish sprinter in Green, and I will cheer on Romain Bardet for the Malliot Jaune.

Well... since you don't like cheating, do you follow any pro sport at all ?
Well, there's scales of everything. Rugby is my favorite sport and it has an honor code that makes cheating harder and it doesn't have the money to be bought.....Football/Soccer is #2 for me and it has a lot of financial cheating.

But cycling is the king of cheating. When Lance Armstrong was caught, the reason they didn't award the tour retroactively to the 5 riders who finished second to him is that all five had been caught up in drug scandals in prior years so it would have been deeply hypocritical of them.

I do like some of the old-school cycling heroes like Greg Lemond, but there have been too many big-time cheats for me to think there is any real competition there. I hope it's changed, but I'm skeptical.
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Soloyan

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Re: Tour de France
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2020, 06:58:42 PM »
I've found the level of cheating too much to tolerate in recent years to keep up. I am keeping one eye on the Irish sprinter in Green, and I will cheer on Romain Bardet for the Malliot Jaune.

Well... since you don't like cheating, do you follow any pro sport at all ?
Well, there's scales of everything. Rugby is my favorite sport and it has an honor code that makes cheating harder and it doesn't have the money to be bought.....Football/Soccer is #2 for me and it has a lot of financial cheating.

But cycling is the king of cheating. When Lance Armstrong was caught, the reason they didn't award the tour retroactively to the 5 riders who finished second to him is that all five had been caught up in drug scandals in prior years so it would have been deeply hypocritical of them.

I do like some of the old-school cycling heroes like Greg Lemond, but there have been too many big-time cheats for me to think there is any real competition there. I hope it's changed, but I'm skeptical.

What you donít like is cheaters getting caught. That is different.

Cheaters are being caught in cycling because they actually look for them.
Do you know about the ADAMS program ? A pro rider has to log in and tell about his every move 48h in advance so that he can be tested, unannounced. If the testers turn up and heís not there itís a no show. 3 no shows and youíre suspended for 2 years.
A soccer team went on strike because they were going to be tested... during training.

By the way, if you take the ratio number of controls / number of positives (I/e cheaters) rugby and soccer are in fact dirtier than cycling... with 10 times less controls (not to mention corruption).

Do you think for a minute that a sport that is doing financial cheating / bribery, where the players sleep with underage prostitutes (soccer) donít dope ? Honor code ? Come on, youíre smarter than this.

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Codeguy

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Re: Tour de France
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2020, 01:46:44 PM »
I've found the level of cheating too much to tolerate in recent years to keep up. I am keeping one eye on the Irish sprinter in Green, and I will cheer on Romain Bardet for the Malliot Jaune.

Well... since you don't like cheating, do you follow any pro sport at all ?
Well, there's scales of everything. Rugby is my favorite sport and it has an honor code that makes cheating harder and it doesn't have the money to be bought.....Football/Soccer is #2 for me and it has a lot of financial cheating.

But cycling is the king of cheating. When Lance Armstrong was caught, the reason they didn't award the tour retroactively to the 5 riders who finished second to him is that all five had been caught up in drug scandals in prior years so it would have been deeply hypocritical of them.

I do like some of the old-school cycling heroes like Greg Lemond, but there have been too many big-time cheats for me to think there is any real competition there. I hope it's changed, but I'm skeptical.

What you donít like is cheaters getting caught. That is different.

Cheaters are being caught in cycling because they actually look for them.
Do you know about the ADAMS program ? A pro rider has to log in and tell about his every move 48h in advance so that he can be tested, unannounced. If the testers turn up and heís not there itís a no show. 3 no shows and youíre suspended for 2 years.
A soccer team went on strike because they were going to be tested... during training.

By the way, if you take the ratio number of controls / number of positives (I/e cheaters) rugby and soccer are in fact dirtier than cycling... with 10 times less controls (not to mention corruption).

Do you think for a minute that a sport that is doing financial cheating / bribery, where the players sleep with underage prostitutes (soccer) donít dope ? Honor code ? Come on, youíre smarter than this.

No Soloyan you've got me wrong. When the cheating is so endemic that you have cyclists dropping dead in their 40's, "recovering from testicular cancer" as world-class cyclists, etc., nd you see it over and over and over again, you eventually lose interest. I suspect cycling has become a far more honest sport in recent years, it's just that there were too many blows. I still love Greg Lemond, Laurent Fignon, Hinault, etc., though I suspect in hindsight that they might have done thier fair share of the same thing.

Financial cheating is endemic in soccer, I admit that, and it makes me dislike the teams that do it (Man City and PSG come to mind). In Rugby, there is a growing but by no means systemic problem with doping. Not denying any of that. The 2019 World Cup had random anti-doping tests for 4 players on each team each week. It's not enough, they should test every player after every game. But the history of Rugby being an amateur sport with an honor code really has made a big difference on the level of doping. AS Ronan O Gara said "When we found one person who had been doping, we strung him up and he never played again. That's how it is in Rugby." Not to say it doesn't happen, but it's not endemic like it is in cycling.

The big issue with cycling isn't that cyclists are bad people compared to other sports. It's that the risk/reward equation is different. The amount of suffering players go through, the length of the competition, the sheer number of competitors, the fact that until recently we couldn't effectively test for blood doping, the fact that blood doping isn't very effective in 80 / 90 minute sports, etc., all made it easier and more rewarding for cyclists to cheat. There's also the fact that once "the other guys are doing it", you can rightly feel a sense of moral justification doing it too.
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John Galt

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Re: Tour de France
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2020, 02:16:09 PM »
I didn't like Armstrong.  An arrogant Yank.  I prefer arrogance in Frenchmen.  It sits better on them like a tailored suit.

« Last Edit: September 12, 2020, 02:19:33 PM by John Galt »
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Soloyan

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Re: Tour de France
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2020, 03:24:43 PM »
I've found the level of cheating too much to tolerate in recent years to keep up. I am keeping one eye on the Irish sprinter in Green, and I will cheer on Romain Bardet for the Malliot Jaune.

Well... since you don't like cheating, do you follow any pro sport at all ?
Well, there's scales of everything. Rugby is my favorite sport and it has an honor code that makes cheating harder and it doesn't have the money to be bought.....Football/Soccer is #2 for me and it has a lot of financial cheating.

But cycling is the king of cheating. When Lance Armstrong was caught, the reason they didn't award the tour retroactively to the 5 riders who finished second to him is that all five had been caught up in drug scandals in prior years so it would have been deeply hypocritical of them.

I do like some of the old-school cycling heroes like Greg Lemond, but there have been too many big-time cheats for me to think there is any real competition there. I hope it's changed, but I'm skeptical.

What you donít like is cheaters getting caught. That is different.

Cheaters are being caught in cycling because they actually look for them.
Do you know about the ADAMS program ? A pro rider has to log in and tell about his every move 48h in advance so that he can be tested, unannounced. If the testers turn up and heís not there itís a no show. 3 no shows and youíre suspended for 2 years.
A soccer team went on strike because they were going to be tested... during training.

By the way, if you take the ratio number of controls / number of positives (I/e cheaters) rugby and soccer are in fact dirtier than cycling... with 10 times less controls (not to mention corruption).

Do you think for a minute that a sport that is doing financial cheating / bribery, where the players sleep with underage prostitutes (soccer) donít dope ? Honor code ? Come on, youíre smarter than this.

No Soloyan you've got me wrong. When the cheating is so endemic that you have cyclists dropping dead in their 40's, "recovering from testicular cancer" as world-class cyclists, etc., nd you see it over and over and over again, you eventually lose interest. I suspect cycling has become a far more honest sport in recent years, it's just that there were too many blows. I still love Greg Lemond, Laurent Fignon, Hinault, etc., though I suspect in hindsight that they might have done thier fair share of the same thing.

Financial cheating is endemic in soccer, I admit that, and it makes me dislike the teams that do it (Man City and PSG come to mind). In Rugby, there is a growing but by no means systemic problem with doping. Not denying any of that. The 2019 World Cup had random anti-doping tests for 4 players on each team each week. It's not enough, they should test every player after every game. But the history of Rugby being an amateur sport with an honor code really has made a big difference on the level of doping. AS Ronan O Gara said "When we found one person who had been doping, we strung him up and he never played again. That's how it is in Rugby." Not to say it doesn't happen, but it's not endemic like it is in cycling.

The big issue with cycling isn't that cyclists are bad people compared to other sports. It's that the risk/reward equation is different. The amount of suffering players go through, the length of the competition, the sheer number of competitors, the fact that until recently we couldn't effectively test for blood doping, the fact that blood doping isn't very effective in 80 / 90 minute sports, etc., all made it easier and more rewarding for cyclists to cheat. There's also the fact that once "the other guys are doing it", you can rightly feel a sense of moral justification doing it too.

Iím sorry, mate. I truly value your opinion, which is very informed most of the time, on many topics.
But youíre in the wrong, here.
There is blood doping in many, many sports. If itís not used in competition, itís used for training so that they can handle more difficult programs.
So, yes, there is blood doping in skiing (2 minutes efforts) tennis, football, rugby... but the only way to catch them would be to test them out of competition, unannounced and those sports just donít do it. You know why ? Because most people react like you. Nobody caught ? Nobody dopes. Somebody caught ? Doping is rampant.
Cycling has been giving the bad example for every other sport because they are actually dealing with doping. As a result, people assume itís the only sport where people dope.
Ironic, uh ?
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Codeguy

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Re: Tour de France
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2020, 05:00:36 PM »
We can agree to disagree Soloyan.
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Soloyan

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Re: Tour de France
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2020, 05:33:15 AM »
We can agree to disagree Soloyan.

Sure.

There's one thing we agree on, though, is that the Hinault / Fignon / LeMond period was very different. It remains, by far, my favorite.
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MPare1966

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Re: Tour de France
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2020, 07:49:56 AM »
We can agree to disagree Soloyan.

Sure.

There's one thing we agree on, though, is that the Hinault / Fignon / LeMond period was very different. It remains, by far, my favorite.

I remember starting to follow the Tour more closely during the Indurain years. Whatís your view on him?
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Soloyan

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Re: Tour de France
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2020, 08:49:29 AM »
We can agree to disagree Soloyan.

Sure.

There's one thing we agree on, though, is that the Hinault / Fignon / LeMond period was very different. It remains, by far, my favorite.

I remember starting to follow the Tour more closely during the Indurain years. Whatís your view on him?

To me, Indurain is the beginning of the end, for a few reasons :
1/the most boring Tours in history, as he was destroying the opposition during the time trials (at the time there were lots of those)on first week and climbers always failed to outgun him.
2/The rise of blood doping, which cut short a whole generation of riders before their prime (Charly Mottet, Andy hampsten, just to name 2). Indurain was never hunted down as Armstrong was, because he was essentially a nice, decent bloke. Not an arrogant prick.
3/Indurain is the first Tour winner who's never set foot on a cobblestone (spring classics). That was the end of the "all rounders" in favor of hyper specialists.

For more, I wrote this about "Mig-Hell" :

https://greglemondfans.wordpress.com/2014/05/03/dark-side-of-the-lake/

That being said... Indurain was always going to be a very good rider and time trialist. Just not THAT good.
A dangerous idea that almost makes sense...