Time to declare religion a public health crisis?

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restofit

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Time to declare religion a public health crisis?
« on: July 12, 2020, 06:05:52 PM »
I'm starting to wonder if "street epistemology" as a means of combating religion is an appropriate strategy. At worst, it appears downright naive. We're obviously going about it the wrong way, given the stubborn persistence of religion. Perhaps the best way to free people from the prison of faith is to declare a public health crisis.

Religion definitely has all the makings of a public health crisis. It leads to widespread child physical and sexual abuse. This includes male/female genital mutilation and barbaric corporal punishment, not to mention the childhood indoctrination that stunts intellectual development. Dangerous viruses and other diseases are easily and rapidly spread through religion. Christian and Muslim congregations are notorious for facilitating disease transmission, recently Covid-19, killing thousands and sickening many more.

In France, an evangelical church was a "virus time bomb" that helped spread Covid-19 globally:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-france-church-spec/special-report-five-days-of-worship-that-set-a-virus-time-bomb-in-france-idUSKBN21H0Q2

« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 06:09:26 PM by restofit »

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restofit

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Re: Time to declare religion a public health crisis?
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2020, 06:06:07 PM »
Religion kills directly through its many dangerous and ignorant practices, like people being denied/denying themselves lifesaving medical treatment, honor killings, and capital punishment for adultery, blasphemy and homosexuality (i.e. Islam). This is on top of all the wars and other deadly conflicts caused by religion down throughout the ages.

Internationally speaking, it's been proven that religious societies fare worse than secular societies.

Noted religion researcher Phil Zuckerman, PhD points out that, in the US, religious states do far worse than secular states "on a vast host of measures, including homicide and violent crime rates, poverty rates, obesity and diabetes rates, child abuse rates, educational attainment levels, income levels, unemployment rates, rates of sexually transmitted diseases and teen pregnancy, etc."

« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 06:16:24 PM by restofit »

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restofit

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« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 06:15:20 PM by restofit »

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restofit

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Re: Time to declare religion a public health crisis?
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2020, 06:15:29 PM »
He concludes:

"In nearly every sociological measure of well-being, youíre most likely to find the more secular states with the lowest levels of faith in God and the lowest rates of church attendance faring the best and the most religious states with the highest levels of faith in God and rates of church attendance faring the worst."

This association obtains for all other countries, not just those in the West.

The repeated, strong correlation of religion with social dysfunction allows us to conclude that religion is among the primary causes of societal failure (to the hurr-durr "correlation doesn't equal causation" crowd: we can definitely infer causation from repeated correlations).

It's clear the most humane approach to religious believers is to treat religion as a mental-illness.

Religious people are genuinely unwell individuals in need of our compassion, not our contempt.

Methods like "street epistemology" ignore the fact religion isn't only the result of cognitive dysfunction, but an epidemiological issue that threatens societal stability.

Time for governments around the world to declare a public health crisis.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 06:22:46 PM by restofit »

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Codeguy

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Re: Time to declare religion a public health crisis?
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2020, 09:03:29 PM »
There is a direct correlation between religiosity and all kinds of bad things, but for people who only see religion as a pathway to belief in god, it's harmless. The problem is that there is not a religion out there that doesn't try to control people and ultimately, belief in a god is coupled with the desire to control other people. 
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So Cruel

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Re: Time to declare religion a public health crisis?
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2020, 09:33:17 PM »
Mods, whatever happened to this:

Help us make your forum a great place to be. ..PLEASE REFRAIN FROM MAKING SWEEPING STATEMENTS ABOUT SPECIFIC RELIGIONS/RACES/GENDERS.

Restofit basically is a troll who is on this forum to bash religion and has created more than one thread to do so, and of course Codeguy (who is a Mod) has no problem joining in. These threads should be blocked and a warning sent to restofit about trolling this forum. We donít need to constantly see this shit from him.

And restofit, please go fuck yourself.
Definitive U2 Top 10: 1. One, 2. Bad, 3. With Or Without You, 4. Running to Stand Still, 5. So Cruel, 6. Ultraviolet, 7. I Still Havenít Found What Iím Looking For, 8. Hawkmoon 269, 9. Red Hill Mining Town, 10. Luminous Times

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WookieeWarrior

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Re: Time to declare religion a public health crisis?
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2020, 09:58:49 PM »
There's a religious impulse in all of us. It may be crude to put it this way, but it's like a coping mechanism our psychology has devised in order to endure the greatest cosmic coincidence/curse of all: our sentience, and finding ourselves in a reality that doesn't accommodate it. Most non-believers put something in the traditional God's place, whether that something is healthy or not, as nihilism is an unsustainable alternative. That explains belief in aliens, scientism, and more fruitfully, rational philosophies that can shape our lives better than a church can. Militant atheism is a similar cultish alternative faith.

Living in the "buckle of the Bible Belt", I've seen firsthand the frightening lengths people will go to justify their behavior with religion. As science has continued to invalidate scripture over the years, religion intertwines more and more with anti-intellectualism. People take pride in sticking it out the irreligious left because they still go to church, although they're the ones peddling a nonsensical persecution complex which itself reveals insecurity in faith. All of it is projected self-doubt and unhealthy propensity for identity politics.

My point is that religion will always play a role in human societies, but it must be expressed in healthy ways moving into the future. That means an end to organized religion. I've seen "all faiths" churches before, where community is more important than worship, and I think such arrangements would be conducive to combating the death of the spirit that Nietzsche envisaged so many years ago as a consequence of the search for knowledge.

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Codeguy

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Re: Time to declare religion a public health crisis?
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2020, 10:24:35 PM »
Mods, whatever happened to this:

Help us make your forum a great place to be. ..PLEASE REFRAIN FROM MAKING SWEEPING STATEMENTS ABOUT SPECIFIC RELIGIONS/RACES/GENDERS.

Restofit basically is a troll who is on this forum to bash religion and has created more than one thread to do so, and of course Codeguy (who is a Mod) has no problem joining in. These threads should be blocked and a warning sent to restofit about trolling this forum. We donít need to constantly see this shit from him.

And restofit, please go fuck yourself.

So Cruel, the mods have discussed this topic in detail after several past posts offended the sensibilities of Christians.  There is nothing wrong with restofit's post. In fact, it's yours that runs afoul of our rules. Calling restofit a troll who is on this forum only to bash religion and telling him to fuck himself - not cool!

We don't tolerate out-and-out trolling here, but restofit comments on U2 threads far more than on politics or religion, and his thoughtful, provocative post here is perfectly legit, even if you don't agree with it.

Our "sweeping statements" was clearly meant for "all muslims are terrorists" or "all christians are ignorant" types of abuse. It is not intended to stifle restofit's right to post a scholarly article or study about the topic.

Carry on.
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Codeguy

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Re: Time to declare religion a public health crisis?
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2020, 10:37:12 PM »
There's a religious impulse in all of us. It may be crude to put it this way, but it's like a coping mechanism our psychology has devised in order to endure the greatest cosmic coincidence/curse of all: our sentience, and finding ourselves in a reality that doesn't accommodate it. Most non-believers put something in the traditional God's place, whether that something is healthy or not, as nihilism is an unsustainable alternative. That explains belief in aliens, scientism, and more fruitfully, rational philosophies that can shape our lives better than a church can. Militant atheism is a similar cultish alternative faith.

Living in the "buckle of the Bible Belt", I've seen firsthand the frightening lengths people will go to justify their behavior with religion. As science has continued to invalidate scripture over the years, religion intertwines more and more with anti-intellectualism. People take pride in sticking it out the irreligious left because they still go to church, although they're the ones peddling a nonsensical persecution complex which itself reveals insecurity in faith. All of it is projected self-doubt and unhealthy propensity for identity politics.

My point is that religion will always play a role in human societies, but it must be expressed in healthy ways moving into the future. That means an end to organized religion. I've seen "all faiths" churches before, where community is more important than worship, and I think such arrangements would be conducive to combating the death of the spirit that Nietzsche envisaged so many years ago as a consequence of the search for knowledge.

Wookie you are one of the most intelligent people I have ever encountered and the above is a great argument for egalitarian tribalism, something which I think should exist but doesn't. Take away the idiotic, the unprovable, the untestable, the silly and the offensive, and what is left of religion? Community. Love. Acceptance. A sense of belonging to something greater than oneself. These are things that science can, but doesn't, provide. These are things that we need and historically have gained through religion.

A look at the origin of religion tells us about ourselves. Gods were tribal, seasonal, etc. They reflected the beliefs and needs of the peoples of an era. We have outgrown them, and religion is now becoming more extreme only because it is dying. In 2000, only 4% of Americans identified as having no religion. Now that number is 27%. The rate of growth in atheism will increase in future years, as we discover more and more of the universe, leaving even smaller the tiny gaps in our knowledge in which God is alleged to be hiding. We will soon cure ageing - hell, we can already cure it in mice. What good is a god whose benevolence begins at death if we can achieve biological immortality?

However, love, acceptance and community are things that are not on the menu in generic secularism. I like the idea of egalitarian tribalism - the recognition that all humans need a sense of belonging, and that this sense can be achieved through positive tribalism - communities dedicated to each other, without having the pretense of belief in talking snakes.

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So Cruel

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Re: Time to declare religion a public health crisis?
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2020, 10:39:19 PM »
Mods, whatever happened to this:

Help us make your forum a great place to be. ..PLEASE REFRAIN FROM MAKING SWEEPING STATEMENTS ABOUT SPECIFIC RELIGIONS/RACES/GENDERS.

Restofit basically is a troll who is on this forum to bash religion and has created more than one thread to do so, and of course Codeguy (who is a Mod) has no problem joining in. These threads should be blocked and a warning sent to restofit about trolling this forum. We donít need to constantly see this shit from him.

And restofit, please go fuck yourself.

So Cruel, the mods have discussed this topic in detail after several past posts offended the sensibilities of Christians.  There is nothing wrong with restofit's post. In fact, it's yours that runs afoul of our rules. Calling restofit a troll who is on this forum only to bash religion and telling him to fuck himself - not cool!

We don't tolerate out-and-out trolling here, but restofit comments on U2 threads far more than on politics or religion, and his thoughtful, provocative post here is perfectly legit, even if you don't agree with it.

Our "sweeping statements" was clearly meant for "all muslims are terrorists" or "all christians are ignorant" types of abuse. It is not intended to stifle restofit's right to post a scholarly article or study about the topic.

Carry on.

Are you fucking dense?

From restofits posts:

Religion definitely has all the makings of a public health crisis. It leads to widespread child physical and sexual abuse.

Christian and Muslim congregations are notorious for facilitating disease transmission, recently Covid-19, killing thousands and sickening many more

The repeated, strong correlation of religion with social dysfunction allows us to conclude that religion is among the primary causes of societal failure

Religion kills directly through its many dangerous and ignorant practices


Yup, no sweeping statements there at all.
Definitive U2 Top 10: 1. One, 2. Bad, 3. With Or Without You, 4. Running to Stand Still, 5. So Cruel, 6. Ultraviolet, 7. I Still Havenít Found What Iím Looking For, 8. Hawkmoon 269, 9. Red Hill Mining Town, 10. Luminous Times

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Codeguy

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Re: Time to declare religion a public health crisis?
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2020, 11:01:31 PM »
Mods, whatever happened to this:

Help us make your forum a great place to be. ..PLEASE REFRAIN FROM MAKING SWEEPING STATEMENTS ABOUT SPECIFIC RELIGIONS/RACES/GENDERS.

Restofit basically is a troll who is on this forum to bash religion and has created more than one thread to do so, and of course Codeguy (who is a Mod) has no problem joining in. These threads should be blocked and a warning sent to restofit about trolling this forum. We donít need to constantly see this shit from him.

And restofit, please go fuck yourself.

So Cruel, the mods have discussed this topic in detail after several past posts offended the sensibilities of Christians.  There is nothing wrong with restofit's post. In fact, it's yours that runs afoul of our rules. Calling restofit a troll who is on this forum only to bash religion and telling him to fuck himself - not cool!

We don't tolerate out-and-out trolling here, but restofit comments on U2 threads far more than on politics or religion, and his thoughtful, provocative post here is perfectly legit, even if you don't agree with it.

Our "sweeping statements" was clearly meant for "all muslims are terrorists" or "all christians are ignorant" types of abuse. It is not intended to stifle restofit's right to post a scholarly article or study about the topic.

Carry on.

Are you fucking dense?

From restofits posts:

Religion definitely has all the makings of a public health crisis. It leads to widespread child physical and sexual abuse.

Christian and Muslim congregations are notorious for facilitating disease transmission, recently Covid-19, killing thousands and sickening many more

The repeated, strong correlation of religion with social dysfunction allows us to conclude that religion is among the primary causes of societal failure

Religion kills directly through its many dangerous and ignorant practices


Yup, no sweeping statements there at all.

SoCruel, all of the above statements are true. Let me take them one at a time:

Religion leads to widespread child physical and sexual abuse. The worlds largest religion systematically abused boys for centuries. The worlds second largest religion endorses child marriage, polygamy, etc. Nuff said.

Christian and Muslim congregations are notorious for facilitating disease transmission, recently Covid-19, killing thousands and sickening many more. We have seen this from the cults in South Korea and France that acted as incubators, the mass spread in Pakistan following muslim ceremonies and the churches in the USA who refused to stop meeting. Of course, you can say the same about BLM protests and Trump rallies, so this is not purely about religion, but it certainly does seem that people who listen to a priest are more likely to get sick.

The repeated, strong correlation of religion with social dysfunction allows us to conclude that religion is among the primary causes of societal failure. The correlation is well known within psychiatric circles, but it only applies to the most religious people, not to people who have a faith. In fact, people who have faith are known to have better outcomes in extremely stressful circumstances because they have a belief that god will help them - however deluded I think that faith is, the science shows it actually helps. Doctors are well aware of the power of placebo. However, Restofit's point that religion is a primary cause of societal failure is absolutely true. Northern Ireland. Middle East. Iraq. Over and over again, religion makes people believe that death is not permanent, and that there is a justification to killing.

Religion kills directly through its many dangerous and ignorant practices. 50,000 Jehovah's Witnesses have died due to the prohibition on blood transfusions. How many muslim girls have died in honor killings? What about FGM? Even here in the United States, the religious right let the HIV/AIDS epidemic fester because they perceived it was god's punishment for homosexuality. Oh, and I would suggest that a 2,000 year history of anti-semitism in Europe fostered by religions who could pull their jew-hating bigotry right from the bible, was at least partially responsible for the massive groundswell of young men willing to annihilate the Jews the first chance they got. Religion kills.

In case you think I am making it up that the new testament is antisemitic, read 1 Thessalonians 2:15,16 "For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you suffered ...from the Jews, who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out; they displease God and oppose everyone by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. Thus they have constantly been filling up the measure of their sins; but God's wrath has overtaken them at last." - The writer is referring to the roman sacking of Jerusalem in AD 70, where 800,000 jews were executed, starved, crucified, raped, sold into slavery. That - according to the nice peaceable New Testament - is God's wrath.  Restofit is right, Religion kills.

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WookieeWarrior

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Re: Time to declare religion a public health crisis?
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2020, 11:12:17 PM »
There's a religious impulse in all of us. It may be crude to put it this way, but it's like a coping mechanism our psychology has devised in order to endure the greatest cosmic coincidence/curse of all: our sentience, and finding ourselves in a reality that doesn't accommodate it. Most non-believers put something in the traditional God's place, whether that something is healthy or not, as nihilism is an unsustainable alternative. That explains belief in aliens, scientism, and more fruitfully, rational philosophies that can shape our lives better than a church can. Militant atheism is a similar cultish alternative faith.

Living in the "buckle of the Bible Belt", I've seen firsthand the frightening lengths people will go to justify their behavior with religion. As science has continued to invalidate scripture over the years, religion intertwines more and more with anti-intellectualism. People take pride in sticking it out the irreligious left because they still go to church, although they're the ones peddling a nonsensical persecution complex which itself reveals insecurity in faith. All of it is projected self-doubt and unhealthy propensity for identity politics.

My point is that religion will always play a role in human societies, but it must be expressed in healthy ways moving into the future. That means an end to organized religion. I've seen "all faiths" churches before, where community is more important than worship, and I think such arrangements would be conducive to combating the death of the spirit that Nietzsche envisaged so many years ago as a consequence of the search for knowledge.

Wookie you are one of the most intelligent people I have ever encountered and the above is a great argument for egalitarian tribalism, something which I think should exist but doesn't. Take away the idiotic, the unprovable, the untestable, the silly and the offensive, and what is left of religion? Community. Love. Acceptance. A sense of belonging to something greater than oneself. These are things that science can, but doesn't, provide. These are things that we need and historically have gained through religion.

A look at the origin of religion tells us about ourselves. Gods were tribal, seasonal, etc. They reflected the beliefs and needs of the peoples of an era. We have outgrown them, and religion is now becoming more extreme only because it is dying. In 2000, only 4% of Americans identified as having no religion. Now that number is 27%. The rate of growth in atheism will increase in future years, as we discover more and more of the universe, leaving even smaller the tiny gaps in our knowledge in which God is alleged to be hiding. We will soon cure ageing - hell, we can already cure it in mice. What good is a god whose benevolence begins at death if we can achieve biological immortality?

However, love, acceptance and community are things that are not on the menu in generic secularism. I like the idea of egalitarian tribalism - the recognition that all humans need a sense of belonging, and that this sense can be achieved through positive tribalism - communities dedicated to each other, without having the pretense of belief in talking snakes.

Again I appreciate your praises!

You're absolutely right. Science isn't marketable to the average American like Christianity is. That's why we need figures like Carl Sagan to get people excited about it. The current figurehead, Neil deGrasse, is much too pompous and divisive for the task, as I lamented in another thread. Elon Musk was almost that guy, but he's turned out to be the typical capitalist asshole.

I also think that bit you mention about biological immortality deserves its own thread... a fantastic subject! Stuff like that makes me so excited for the future.

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So Cruel

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Re: Time to declare religion a public health crisis?
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2020, 11:24:00 PM »
Mods, whatever happened to this:

Help us make your forum a great place to be. ..PLEASE REFRAIN FROM MAKING SWEEPING STATEMENTS ABOUT SPECIFIC RELIGIONS/RACES/GENDERS.

Restofit basically is a troll who is on this forum to bash religion and has created more than one thread to do so, and of course Codeguy (who is a Mod) has no problem joining in. These threads should be blocked and a warning sent to restofit about trolling this forum. We donít need to constantly see this shit from him.

And restofit, please go fuck yourself.

So Cruel, the mods have discussed this topic in detail after several past posts offended the sensibilities of Christians.  There is nothing wrong with restofit's post. In fact, it's yours that runs afoul of our rules. Calling restofit a troll who is on this forum only to bash religion and telling him to fuck himself - not cool!

We don't tolerate out-and-out trolling here, but restofit comments on U2 threads far more than on politics or religion, and his thoughtful, provocative post here is perfectly legit, even if you don't agree with it.

Our "sweeping statements" was clearly meant for "all muslims are terrorists" or "all christians are ignorant" types of abuse. It is not intended to stifle restofit's right to post a scholarly article or study about the topic.

Carry on.

Are you fucking dense?

From restofits posts:

Religion definitely has all the makings of a public health crisis. It leads to widespread child physical and sexual abuse.

Christian and Muslim congregations are notorious for facilitating disease transmission, recently Covid-19, killing thousands and sickening many more

The repeated, strong correlation of religion with social dysfunction allows us to conclude that religion is among the primary causes of societal failure

Religion kills directly through its many dangerous and ignorant practices


Yup, no sweeping statements there at all.

SoCruel, all of the above statements are true. Let me take them one at a time:

Those are sweeping statements whether you agree with them or not. Maybe for you and restofit there ďall trueĒ but to many on here itís offensive. You canít see that because you hate religion.
Definitive U2 Top 10: 1. One, 2. Bad, 3. With Or Without You, 4. Running to Stand Still, 5. So Cruel, 6. Ultraviolet, 7. I Still Havenít Found What Iím Looking For, 8. Hawkmoon 269, 9. Red Hill Mining Town, 10. Luminous Times

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restofit

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Re: Time to declare religion a public health crisis?
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2020, 02:44:41 AM »
Mods, whatever happened to this:

Help us make your forum a great place to be. ..PLEASE REFRAIN FROM MAKING SWEEPING STATEMENTS ABOUT SPECIFIC RELIGIONS/RACES/GENDERS.

Restofit basically is a troll who is on this forum to bash religion and has created more than one thread to do so, and of course Codeguy (who is a Mod) has no problem joining in. These threads should be blocked and a warning sent to restofit about trolling this forum. We donít need to constantly see this shit from him.

And restofit, please go fuck yourself.

So Cruel, the mods have discussed this topic in detail after several past posts offended the sensibilities of Christians.  There is nothing wrong with restofit's post. In fact, it's yours that runs afoul of our rules. Calling restofit a troll who is on this forum only to bash religion and telling him to fuck himself - not cool!

We don't tolerate out-and-out trolling here, but restofit comments on U2 threads far more than on politics or religion, and his thoughtful, provocative post here is perfectly legit, even if you don't agree with it.

Our "sweeping statements" was clearly meant for "all muslims are terrorists" or "all christians are ignorant" types of abuse. It is not intended to stifle restofit's right to post a scholarly article or study about the topic.

Carry on.

Are you fucking dense?

From restofits posts:

Religion definitely has all the makings of a public health crisis. It leads to widespread child physical and sexual abuse.

Christian and Muslim congregations are notorious for facilitating disease transmission, recently Covid-19, killing thousands and sickening many more

The repeated, strong correlation of religion with social dysfunction allows us to conclude that religion is among the primary causes of societal failure

Religion kills directly through its many dangerous and ignorant practices


Yup, no sweeping statements there at all.

SoCruel, all of the above statements are true. Let me take them one at a time:

Those are sweeping statements whether you agree with them or not. Maybe for you and restofit there ďall trueĒ but to many on here itís offensive. You canít see that because you hate religion.

What your ignoring is that, for religious folk 'the facts' typically don't matter to them either.

The objective facts about religion are about as abhorrent as it can get, if simply put into one rather large-list documenting the history of human civilisation, there wouldn't be ink-space to breathe..

Sweeping statements or facts, ultimately, either-way, neither matters to those of religious faith, and is unlikely to persuade those religious individuals - because as Codeguy once wisely said:

"Their belief is not based on evidence, but on a deep-rooted need to believe."
« Last Edit: July 13, 2020, 02:58:27 AM by restofit »

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Codeguy

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Re: Time to declare religion a public health crisis?
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2020, 12:21:57 PM »
Personally I have no objection to the need to believe - there are actually studies that show that people who believe have slightly better coping skills when theyíre dying than those who believe death is final. No reason to take that away from them. The problem isnít ďfaithĒ itís religion. Itís the need to deprive people rights, start wars based on ďmy fairy tale is better than your fairy taleĒ, etc.


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